Posts by Lady Liberty

47

Luke 16: 19-24

by vlad in

19but a certain man was rich, and he used to deck himself with purple and linen, enjoying himself from day to day with magnificence.20but a certain beggar named laz arus used to be put at his gate, full of ulcers21and desiring to be filled with the things dropping from the table of the rich man.

yes, too, the dogs would come and lick his ulcers.22now in course of time the beggar died and he was carried off by the angels to the bosom [position] of abraham.. also, the rich man died and was buried.23and in ha des he lifted up his eyes, he existing in torments, and he saw abraham afar off and laz arus in the bosom [position] with him.24so he called and said, father abraham, have mercy on me and send laz arus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because i am in anguish in this blazing fire.. my old account does not seem to be working, so i am not a new member but i did not post loads anyway.

i am an now an athiest myself but anytime i ask jws about a scripture they say its pointless discussing it with me becuase i am only doing it to tear them down.

Lady Liberty

Dear Vlad,

WELCOME to the forum! We are happy to have you here!

Sincerely,

Lady Liberty

39

Let's welcome Rebelwife!

by changeling in

welcome aboard!.

changeling.

Lady Liberty

WELCOME to the forum! We are happy to have you here!!

Sincerely,

Lady Liberty

116

The simplest explanation of 607 BCE

by Doug Mason in

if you are looking for the simplest picture that shows how the wts calculates that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, and if you want to understand basic problems with their method, this might be what you want.. http://au.geocities.com/doug_mason1940/wts_false_reasoning_for_607_bce.pdf.

(make sure that your pdf reader displays the whole page.).

doug.

Lady Liberty

Scholar,

You wrote:

It is you who have manipulated matters regarding Grayson's material. The Society has simply quoted the source, given the appropriate reference and then inserted by means of brackets a date. This is not deceit as you allege but simply the employment of academic convention. If you have a problem with this then write to the Society about it for it is their business, their Style Manual or others that is used. I am not responsible for their writing style so if you have a pwoblem go to the source and not to me.

Again you make a mountain out of a molehill and you show a hatred of 607 because of pride. Jehovah reveals his truth to the humble ones not the proud and arrogant ones. Read God's Word daily and seek the truth!!

How have I manipulated Graysons material? By exploting the Watchtowers deliberate attempt to hide the facts?? Let me ask you this.. Would you have ever checked out the honesty of those so called "brackets"??? No?? Neither would I have, or any other loyal JW! We believed whole heartedly without a shadow of DOUBT...isn't that true?? The fact remains that if they had the truth there would be no need to lie! The intent was to deliberatly DECIEVE.

It is obvious by your sharp reply, that you art just embarressed that I pointed out this deception, and you have nothing to say for it except.."I'm not responsible"!! Ahh..but you are! Before God. You are responsible to teach the truth, and that is where we differ. I am afraid that Mauvie is right in that this is a futal discussion, and I have only entertained you because others are lurking who are desperatly trying to get the "facts" as I once was!

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/109978/1.ashx

If you ever read my first topic, my introduction to the forum you would see I was completely happy in my little JW world! I had no hatred of 607, infact I would have died believing it to be truth! However, after many sleepless nights and long researched filled days, I finally had to do one of two things. That was to blindly accept what ever I was told, or to diligently pray and trust Jehovah that he would show me what was truth, no matter what it was. But it took me along time to get brave enough to dare reach outside the Watchtower! Just remember the "truth" is 100% true. And sadley and unfortunately, upon deep research, this is not what we have found in the Watchtower.

I am now going to bow out of this thread, as your hard headedness, arrogance and haughtiness is apparent to all, it reminds me too much of the Pharasis, and I have no use for it!

Good Day!

L.L.

116

The simplest explanation of 607 BCE

by Doug Mason in

if you are looking for the simplest picture that shows how the wts calculates that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, and if you want to understand basic problems with their method, this might be what you want.. http://au.geocities.com/doug_mason1940/wts_false_reasoning_for_607_bce.pdf.

(make sure that your pdf reader displays the whole page.).

doug.

Lady Liberty

Scholar,

You wrote Jeffro:

Our dates are derived from a properly constituted Bible chronology and stand on their own merits. Many of these dates relate to events enshrined both in Bible history and prophecy which further demonstrates their validity. As you are now forced to concede that 1914 as a prophetic date did see its fulfillment with the outbreak of the Great War from June right through to October.

Are you kidding me?!!! Did you and I not just have this very conversation not two or three posts back, about Russell claiming 1799 was the begining of the Gentile times and that 1914 was to be the end of the world???!!! I challenge you to show us one document that shows they were predicting a war in 1914? Can you ???I can show you over and over they were predicting the end of the world!

You can write anything you want after the fact, which is what the Society has done. THey have "sanitized their past" in order to appear to have been predicting the world war all along. But what are the facts????

Another note for you to ponder: Do you recall what the original Watchtower was entitled?? Zion's Watchtower and Herald of Christ's Presence!!!!

I am sure you can see just from this that Russell and his followers already believed 1799 was significant, and that is when Christ began ruling. NOT 1914! The first Zions Watchtower and Herald of Christs Presence was printed on July 1, 1879!

Again either you are delibertatly trying to decieve ones on this forum or you sadly have not researched enough to get your facts straight!

L.L.

116

The simplest explanation of 607 BCE

by Doug Mason in

if you are looking for the simplest picture that shows how the wts calculates that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, and if you want to understand basic problems with their method, this might be what you want.. http://au.geocities.com/doug_mason1940/wts_false_reasoning_for_607_bce.pdf.

(make sure that your pdf reader displays the whole page.).

doug.

Lady Liberty

Scholar,

You said:

In the Insight Vol.1, p.454 it addresses the matter you raise. After citing the claim made by Martin Noth, the writer notes the "correlation of astronomical data with human events in the past is subject to various factors and human interpretation allowing for error." A problem arises for those who foolishly insist on the infallibility of Neo-Babylonian chronology is that of reconciling the seventy years of Babyloian domination of Judah during which period the Jews were exiled to Babylon, forced in servitude to Babylon whilst their land was a desert for that definite historical period. A period absent totally from NB history but very much present in the biblical record.

I find it kind of ironic that you would quote me from the very book (the Insight book) I just showed you that had lied about another authors words ( AK Grayson) and now you expect us to believe or give weight to another quote, from yet another author to support Watchtower thinking??

Sorry, but remember the old saying "Fool me once shame on me..fool me twice shame on you!" I wouldn't believe anything the Watchtower quotes from now on unless I see it with my own two eyes!

Like I stated to you before, you have to establish a timeline of events BEFORE you apply the 70 years. And once again, prove to us that your timeline is accurate not using any of the Societys literature, only the Scriptures, the Archeological findings, and reign of Kings during those periods.

I would like to further point out that in order for 607 to be correct, that means not only the Babylonian chronology is off by 20 years, but also the Egyptian chronology. So please explain to all of us how this is possible?? Your date system you are following, is bound to have many backlash effects.

Are you going to tell us now that the Egyptians and the Babylonians, though arc enemies somehow conspired together to alter their records to both be off by this exact 20 year period?? What you are suggesting is that all the artifacts in the Babylonian culture as well as the Egyptian culture that have been unearthed were somehow altered to read a different date or time period. And that all the documents were changed to be 20 years off from what they were supposed to read?! First of all who would undertake such a conspiracy?? Second, even if that was possible, don't you think someone would have found SOMETHING, SOMEWHERE that would PROVE this date of 607??? Again, how silly is this kind of reasoning?? It certainly isn't the kind of reasoning from a "sound mind" that Jehovah has given us! It is absurd to even entertain such a idea!

On the otherhand, what does Archeology find?? Babylonian and Egyptian chrolonlogy are in perfect harmony during this period of time. You can confirm the events between these two enemies if you read the account about the Battle of Carchemish in the Bible. What is even more important is the fact that the BIBLE confirms these events and THERE IS NO 20 YEAR GAP!!!!!

L.L.

116

The simplest explanation of 607 BCE

by Doug Mason in

if you are looking for the simplest picture that shows how the wts calculates that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, and if you want to understand basic problems with their method, this might be what you want.. http://au.geocities.com/doug_mason1940/wts_false_reasoning_for_607_bce.pdf.

(make sure that your pdf reader displays the whole page.).

doug.

Lady Liberty

Scholar,

Lastly, you said this:

I am very serious about the integrity of those nominated dates and I am fully aware of our history and the matter of 'prophetic speculation' which is part and parcel of wonderful Christian heritage much to the chagrin of apostates.

Whatever the proclaimed hopes for 1914 were and the fact that such hopes did not materialize, that year marked the end of the Gentile Times and that was understood decades before the event. Many earnest Bible Students also saw the significance of 1914 which has become not only enshrined in eschatology but also in modern history.

I await with keen anticipation your majestic analysis of 607 BCE.

WRONG! You are again either being dishonest or are terribly mistaken!!! HAVE YOU EVER READ THE STUDIES IN THE SCIPTURES VOLUMES?? I have! If you were to start reading what was being taught as if "from God himself" as Russell put it, you will see he was making claims that the dates were "God's dates"! And if you read any of his writings, again you would see that 1914 was to be the END OF THE WORLD!! Not the begining of the Gentile times. They taught that the Gentile times started in 1799 NOT 1914!! So your above comment that the Society understood the significance of 1914 decades before is a CROCK, and a LIE! Are you trying to SANITIZE their past???!!??

Obviously you would believe anything the Society would tell you regardless of the facts. If they told you to drink poison, I am afraid you would be like my elder brother-in-law who without hesitation said YES! to the same question. Until your heart is ready for truth, you will always believe what you are told regardless if it is offending Jehovah or not!

L.L.

116

The simplest explanation of 607 BCE

by Doug Mason in

if you are looking for the simplest picture that shows how the wts calculates that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, and if you want to understand basic problems with their method, this might be what you want.. http://au.geocities.com/doug_mason1940/wts_false_reasoning_for_607_bce.pdf.

(make sure that your pdf reader displays the whole page.).

doug.

Lady Liberty

Scholar,

You also said:

Your chart and the use of Grayson's material proves nothing because you have simply presented matters in accordance with your own interpretation.

Celebrated WT scholars have used Grayson's research and will continue to do so in full knowledge that Grayson's approach may vary from the 'celebrated'. They have inserted data by means of parenthesis and they have alerted the reader to the reference source so that accords with academic convention.

I believe you are making a 'mountain out of a molehill'.

You are the most unreasonable person I have ever known. On this forum, all you give is your opinion and the opinion of the Watchtower. Where are your facts??!!?? I asked you to prove the deciept in the Babylonian Chronology. Did you give it?? NO!! Yet I provided you with one PERFECT example of Watchtower decipet! Anyone can make grandious claims, but where is your proof to back it up?? Do you really expect us to believe that if the Society made the announcement tommorrow that the 607 date is based upon nothing, and there IS no proof for 607, that all within the organization would be fine with it?? You and I both know the majority would be shocked. They would also be shocked to see the kind of decipt the Society uses like what I provided with AK Grayson as a perfect example of how they need to twist, and out and out LIE to manipulate their history to fit 607 so it appears to be supported by Archeology! You know it, and everyone else who knows about this discrepance knows it! And thank goodness forums like this are showing all who are begining to think for themselves, and who want to know the "truth" are getting the facts!

So you made the comment this was "my interpretation"! The material speaks for itself I need not interpret! The only reason why the Society dares to twist different experts like Grayson, is that they teach the flock not to doubt them. So everything they write must not be challenged. Therefore 99.9% of JWs will never do what I did, and order the book to see if the person being quoted actually said what the Society was claiming him to say.

Infact I would never have even questioned this if I had not realised that if this was true, what the Insight book was saying, that this AK Grayson supported their 607 date, then this would be the ONLY source in two years that we had found to support the Society!! However..once I recieved the book and looked on the pages the Insight book quoted from, I was again shocked to see their out and out deciept, and adding the Authors writings! Now let me ask you, if the Watchtower is right, why the deciept within the Insight book?? You and I both know the answer to that and that is that they did it in order to support 607 date!

Anyone who is truely seeking to find the facts and the truth about this subject would not belittle this A K Grayson vs Insight book example. Again, it is a shameful example of Watchtower deciept, and that is why you make such silly claims as "you are making a mountain out of a molehill"!

L.L.

116

The simplest explanation of 607 BCE

by Doug Mason in

if you are looking for the simplest picture that shows how the wts calculates that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, and if you want to understand basic problems with their method, this might be what you want.. http://au.geocities.com/doug_mason1940/wts_false_reasoning_for_607_bce.pdf.

(make sure that your pdf reader displays the whole page.).

doug.

Lady Liberty

Scholar,

You said:

For starters, such chronology does not account either in its history or tabulation of the regnal years for the Neo-Babylonian kings any evidenc eof the biblical 'seventy years'.

Let me ask you a very serious question: Have you EVER made a chart using the Bible, and Archeological evidence to see how they compare with one another, without using the Societies literature and date of 607?? Over the years MANY different ones have posted a chart for you showing the Kings List of events and the Kings that reigned at the time, the scriptural evidence to support each reign, and Archeological findings that confirm each reign. Yet I have never ever seen a chart using the same method from you for all of us to see. I challenge you to make a chart to show us the evidences that support 607. And if indeed this date is correct, you should be able to find at least one piece of Archeological evidence to support your case!

You know it makes me think of a person who is on trial for murder. Here you have the prosecuting Attourney that shows all the lines of evidence. There is a perfect time line of the events that took place that lead up to the murder, and the evidences all support one another. There is no gap, or doubt in anyones mind that this person was indeed the murderer. Infact, in so many words he even admitted to it. Then you have the defence Attourney, who is trying to argue that the defendant should be trusted, and the evidences should be ignored, but gives no reason why, no proof that disproves his client was the murderer, basically he HAS NO DEFENCE. And infact, the defence Attourney even suggests that no matter what evidence is presented, the jury should ignore it and pretend like the unquestionable evidence doesn't "really" exist or matter.

Do you think any thinking jury or any other person in that courtroom with half a brain would ignore all the evidence because the person on trial or his defence Attourney wanted them to ignore it? NO! That would be silly and even crazy!

You see Scholar, you are ignoring all the evidence mounted up against the 607 reasoning! The only way you have even come up with the 607 date is from the Society! NO WHERE, ANYWHERE is there proof for such date! Believe me, when I first realized the 607 discrepancy, I searched for 2 YEARS trying to find one shread of evidence that I could use to SUPPORT 607! I did not want to believe the people who I was brainwashed to label..the "APOSTATES". Yet the more I searched the more I realised the "apostates" were not lying!!

And like I showed you in my previous post, the Society has a terrible tract record for dates..do they not???!!?? Why should we believe them? Give us PROOF! Even the elders who met with us admitted on tape, "There is NO PROOF FOR 607!!" So there you have it! Again, I challenge you for a list of events, Kings supported by Scriptures, and Archeological findings.

L.L.

116

The simplest explanation of 607 BCE

by Doug Mason in

if you are looking for the simplest picture that shows how the wts calculates that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, and if you want to understand basic problems with their method, this might be what you want.. http://au.geocities.com/doug_mason1940/wts_false_reasoning_for_607_bce.pdf.

(make sure that your pdf reader displays the whole page.).

doug.

Lady Liberty

Scholar,

One more thing I wanted to post last night. This is also from a earlier thread:

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/110306/1.ashx

Was watching a awesome program last night called Solar Max on cable. It is a IMAX film about the solar system. They made a comment that I quickly wrote down, "The Babylonians records are so accurate that they use them today to correct computer programs." I thought that was profound, let alone absolutely AMAZING! With such accuracy, could they be 20 years off?? I DON"T THINK SO!!!

If you get a chance watch to see it, do. It is awe inspiring!!

L.L.

116

The simplest explanation of 607 BCE

by Doug Mason in

if you are looking for the simplest picture that shows how the wts calculates that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, and if you want to understand basic problems with their method, this might be what you want.. http://au.geocities.com/doug_mason1940/wts_false_reasoning_for_607_bce.pdf.

(make sure that your pdf reader displays the whole page.).

doug.

Lady Liberty

Scholar,

Continued....

You said:

WT chronology produced by 'celebrated WT scholars is far from doomed. Rather, it is the demonic and absurd secular chronologies that support 586/587 BCE that are doomed because these chronologies misrepresent God's Word and are full of deceit. What is more important unlike wiley poztates is that loyalty and integrity are important qualiies of the True Religion which completely escapes those who love the lie rather than the truth.

Prove the deciept! Show us an example!! I will however be happy to show you Watchtower Deciept which I posted a while ago on another thread. How can you explain this away Scholar?? Who is decieving who???!!??

(Note: Since the Society holds to the 607 date as Jerusalems destruction, it throws off every other date in the Watchtower history by 20 years. Take a look at any date before or after that period and compare it to Archeological findings, and the Watchtowers date is always off by 20 years! See the example below.)

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/111283/1.ashx

I just made this chart for my brother-in-law using the Bible as well as the book entitled Assyrian & Babylonian Chronicles by A.K. Grayson printed in 1975. Grayson is a world renound expert used to decipher the Assyrian and Babylonian Chronicles for the British Museum. I checked out this book from the local library. Although they had to send away to a College University for it. A interesting note: the Society uses this very book in the Insight Vol.2 under Nebuchadnezzar to support their dates. When I got this book, it was for the purpose of checking their dates and quotes of this author. As you will see by this chart, they have misquoted him to serve their own deceitful purpose! I included scriptures that support the chronicles. Like I said, I made this for my brother-in-law, but thought someone out there might be able to use it.

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/111407/1.ashx

(Note: page 2 of the above thread has the actual scans from the books...PROOF of Watchtower Deciept!)

These copies show the out and out deception on the part of the organization. Once again, we find proof of them misquoting different scholars in order for the organization to appear to have credentials for proof of their date system. If I never checked their date out and never had any reason to doubt them, then I would have never have seen the deception. Hope someone will benefit from these as much as we have.

See scanned copy of Insight Book page 480, which reads :

In this his accession year he returned to Hattu, and "in the month Shebat [January-February, 624 B.C.E.] he took the vast booty of Hattu to Babylon." (AssyrianandBabylonianChronicles, by A. K. Grayson, 1975, p. 100)

Now look at the actual scanned page from this very book I checked out from the library. Page 100 Notice there is NO date!! Look closer at the Insight Book Scan. In brackets they insert the date 624 B.C.E. inside the quotation marks. Clearly anyone reading this would never question that the date 624 B.C.E. was actually the date given by this renouned scholar.

Then, lets look at scanned page 19 from this same book. Notice what date A.K. Grayson DOES give: 605 B.C.E. NOT 624 B.C.E.!!! Interesting that the Society has to alter the Battle of Carchemishs dates because they have changed the date of the destruction of Jerusalem.

I posted the scanned copy of page 19. Under Chronicle 5 notice what A. K. Grayson states is Nabopolassars 21st year. It says 605! Now look in Jeremiah 52:12, it says the destuction of Jerusalem took place in Nebuchadnezzars 19th reignal year. The Society teaches 607 was the year for Jerusalems destruction, and they teach it was Nebuchadnezzars 19th reignal year. O.K.....How is A.K. Grayson supporting 607 if he states that Nabopolassars 21st year was in 605?? Please now tell me A.K. Grayson is NOT in agreement with 586/587??

You can request the book for your library to see for yourself! I will get more scans from the office for you like you requested.

L.L.